ForestBoard

Uan aa Boa wrote:

There's no need to be so passively aggressive. We're trying to share something of the regional culture with you in the hope of improving things for everyone. When you first arrived you had 101 newbie's questions and we were all very patient and helpful. We're not intolerant of newcomers, we're just asking for a little respect.

Of course. I am not trying to be passive aggressive, but considering the circumstances, until I fully understand what is acceptable and not acceptable, I think I shall take a break from our RMB. I really am trying to be respectful and sincere, but I still am relatively new around here, and I'm afraid I still need a bit of help understanding what's ok and not ok on our RMB, so thank you for so generously explaining this all to me. On the contrary to what you alluded, I certainly agree that Forest is incredibly welcoming, and though my intent was humour, not disrespect, I now will take full blame for this incident. I'm deeply sorry, and thank you for still, regardless of this, taking the time to explain Forest's culture and inner workings. All government's have problems, and hopefully this will be a message to me and to other newbies to be more conciensious (mind my spelling) about our posts and what they may lead to.

1.

Kanaitiruss wrote:

To celebrate the end of their oppression. This reason is probably the best of the bunch, but the problem is we are not doing the same for all oppressed groups. I know life isn’t fair and all, but if we are celebrating oppressed groups, we are missing the months for Native Americans, Romas, the Jews, and many others?

June commemorates the Stonewall riots. It's certainly not celebrating the end of oppression, as most LGBT people I know would not say that there is no longer oppression.

Why not have months celebrating other oppressed groups? It's not as if June being pride month precludes it from also being a month commemorating another group.

2.

Kanaitiruss wrote:

To celebrate their achievements and their contributions to society. Though I’m sure many people from this group have made many achievements and contributions to society, but all groups have made some advances for society, and so I feel that this reason applies to all peoples.

Many contributions to society by LGBT and other marginalized groups have historically not been celebrated in their time. There is also value in emphasizing that LGBT people have made huge contributions to society.

3.

Kanaitiruss wrote:

To spread a positive image of them to society. This reason, besides sounding a bit like propaganda, is in my eyes counterproductive. Bringing any group or individual into the spotlight and all grey space around them disappears. People will either accept the object of this light or reject it and that creates a line in the sand. Mostly on the same point, whatever side is popular, becomes a marketing point for businesses, which then objectifies the group or person. An outside example of this is Donald Trump, if Trump had just stayed with his good, lucrative job, few people would care what he says or thinks. But, he ran for the presidency, and now a whole country either hates him or loves him, and his every word is under a microscope.

RMB: 44 new posts. Mostly all nonsense.

Eryndlynd wrote:

100% agree. This is what I wish I'd said in my previous post. We've had spammy and meme-y Foresters come and go, but this is getting to a level that's disruptive to the integrity of the region as a whole. And yeah, withdrawing from the RMB means ceding it to spam and nonsense, so maybe there's some obligation to continue to try to contribute, because I think it's worth saving. But you know what? I'm an old man by internet standards. I'm too tired and too busy.

Yes. I know what you mean. I feel like anymore, the RMB is at the point where the fluff and the noise and the gratuitous silliness is so prevalent, that the actual "content" (i.e. one of the single best things that had made the region so awesome historically, at least in my own personal view) is drowned out.

Northern Wood made a wonderfully poignant post about the riots and violence enveloping the country, and I had typed two paragraphs in response, and then deleted it because it was already like 40 posts ago. The gist of it was about the dichotomy between the peacefulness and tranquility of my own days gardening and enjoying the woods and the overlapping and multifaceted problems facing the country on the other hand.

I'd also like to acknowledge Uan aa Boa, who more beautifully and cogently stated what I did in several pages' worth of text in merely two paragraphs. We are indeed like bacteria, in the ways that you described. Your analysis of things is always so spot on and erudite. It's great to have you back in the trampled RV campgrounds that is Forest.

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Also, is this Pokemon nonsense finally over? It's honestly tempting to not log on somedays, because it's like the actual Forest community is gone, and now it's silliness and random people from other regions and strings of 5-10 one-liners and EXCLAMATORY FRAGMENTS!!! and plugs for nonsense polls and whatnot. It's like an interpretive YouTube comments section, minus the malice and conspiracy theories.

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Anyway, happy June! In a world with coronavirus, recession, violence, refugees, civil conflicts, and global warming, we could all use a little gay pride right now!!

Edit: Thank you to The Riparian Procyonid Republic of Raccoon Creek for making my June flag last year! We rolled it out again, after internally voting to do so officially every June. :-D

Ruinenlust wrote:

RMB: 44 new posts. Mostly all nonsense.

Also, is this Pokemon nonsense finally over? It's honestly tempting to not log on somedays, because it's like the actual Forest community is gone, and now it's silliness and random people from other regions and strings of 5-10 one-liners and EXCLAMATORY FRAGMENTS!!! and plugs for nonsense polls and whatnot. It's like an interpretive YouTube comments section, minus the malice and conspiracy theories.

Nope, the Pokémon thing is not done yet. Considering what is going on in the world I had strong intentions not to respond on any of it on the RMB. Just to do my thing and to let it slip into obscurity so we could get back to actual "content". However I had the idea, and it was more or less presented as such, that it was an "official" community event between us and a couple of regions we have good connections with. The involvement of our Community Branch officer certainly reinforces that idea. I have nothing with the subject of Pokémon and in light of what has been happening around the world I can understand you calling it nonsense....I in fact have offered to withdraw so someone who is actually into Pokémon could take my place but apparently there were none so I considered it my civic duty to represent Forest despite having never watched a Pokémon episode in my life. To sum it up it comes across as strange that as a region we first greenlit an event but then as it progresses it receives criticism for being "silly". I suggest you evaluate this "event" during your next cabinet meeting.

Octopus islands wrote:

How about we just choose not to burn them down in the first place? That's still an option. Stopping police assaults is unfortunately not, until the government is no longer too corrupt to prosecute offenders.

You seem to suggest that protestors have to be reasonable and responsible while accepting that the police can't or won't be. So you frame the problem this way round - but couldn't we reverse it and say that people subject to injustice are inevitably going to kick off because that's human nature, while the police not killing people is an option?

Kanaitiruss wrote:

Why do we have pride month? Many people will give many different reasons, but I think the reasoning behind many of these ideas are wrong.

1. To celebrate the end of their oppression. This reason is probably the best of the bunch, but the problem is we are not doing the same for all oppressed groups. I know life isn’t fair and all, but if we are celebrating oppressed groups, we are missing the months for Native Americans, Romas, the Jews, and many others?

2. To celebrate their achievements and their contributions to society. Though I’m sure many people from this group have made many achievements and contributions to society, but all groups have made some advances for society, and so I feel that this reason applies to all peoples.

3. To spread a positive image of them to society. This reason, besides sounding a bit like propaganda, is in my eyes counterproductive. Bringing any group or individual into the spotlight and all grey space around them disappears. People will either accept the object of this light or reject it and that creates a line in the sand. Mostly on the same point, whatever side is popular, becomes a marketing point for businesses, which then objectifies the group or person. An outside example of this is Donald Trump, if Trump had just stayed with his good, lucrative job, few people would care what he says or thinks. But, he ran for the presidency, and now a whole country either hates him or loves him, and his every word is under a microscope.

I know I will probably be banned on the account of bigotry for this post.

Firstly, you brought forth calm arguments without using ad hominem attacks towards anyone here, so there would be no reason to ban you. Forest is a region that welcomes people from all points of view so long as they respect one another here.

I do kind of have to raise an eyebrow to your assertion that we largely miss celebrations from other cultural cohorts. Hanukkah, for example, is a Jewish celebration known the world over—and has been recognized at the White House in the U.S. for decades. Now, for some of the most culturally oppressed peoples in the world like American Indians, yeah the U.S. doesn't necessarily have a well-known month to recognize them nationally (although November is technically Native American Heritage Month), but within their culture, they do practice many ceremonies and rituals that give them a sense of pride for their heritage. Do I wish the U.S. government would honor them more prominently in the larger culture? Of course, but just because they aren't as celebrated by non-American Indians doesn't mean they don't engage in important cultural celebrations.

The issue with LGBT+ is that we are much less visible to society. No one really knows whether you are a member of the community unless you "come out." That leaves us more vulnerable to misconceptions about who we are and what we stand for. The idea of pride celebrations, which is open to everyone (LGBT+ and straight allies), is to leave behind old, suppressed emotions and discover a rich, diverse, and loving community that was there all along. If we didn't, we would have to go back to meeting underground like they do in socially conservative countries where you're likely to be jailed, or worse, if you're exposed for being something that you have no control over. I am very proud to be openly gay in the U.S. where, at the most, people will only give me odd glances if I hold hands with my significant other down the street, as opposed to being arrested or flogged to death.

I like fire wrote:

Hello Forest friends!!! I am writing to let you know that elections time has begun in The South Pacific! If you have any questions, I'll be more than happy to answer to the best of my ability!

Greetings! I am the newly appointed Diplomatic Root, or Deputy Foreign Minister of Ambassadors, and so once we are ready figuring out which of our ambassadors are currently in those positions, we will notify you! I do believe, however, that our current ambassador is Mount Seymour, although I may be wrong, as our current ambassador lists are very outdated, which is why the new position that I am in has been created!

Uan aa Boa wrote:

Would you people please stop the spam? There's Discord and any number of regions where this kind of posting is perfectly normal. Go to any of them and post whatever vacuous sh1t you like. All we ask is to have just one place where there's a modicum of intelligence and a community that's active without having 100+ pointless posts a day.

...

Pack it in. Lardyland is that way.

PSA from the office of the Forum and Discord Sower: We have a channel on the Forest Discord called #the-light-groves which is specifically meant for this kind of roleplaying and single-line humorous banter. The channel description reads as follows: "Posts which are not full sentences, any light "roleplaying", bot requests, trivia, and so on. Spam is strictly not allowed and excess posting of memes is highly discouraged."

I don't want anyone to get the wrong impression -- that I or other Forestians think you're not a valuable member of the community because you like to relax with some short roleplaying sometimes. That's an absolutely legitimate way to play and way to be a part of Forest. The tricky part is simply that unlike Twitter or Facebook, we can't pick and choose what we get notifications for. The RMB is a single notification feed that gives everybody a little red popup whenever it's added to. Traditionally, the RMB has been the home of our mature discussion, because -- as a not-quite-real-time platform -- it's best suited to long-form posts. Hence, many Forestians who want to read that kind of post try to keep up with the RMB and pay attention to all its notifications, and then may get a bit frustrated when they're unable to hear the "main content" over the din of other stuff.

I've used this metaphor before, but I like to think of the Forest RMB as a book club at your local library or bookstore, where we're all sitting around and having intelligent conversation. That doesn't mean we're only limited to talking about the book we're reading, or we're only limited to politics, or we're only limited to philosophy that would make the dons proud. There's space in a book club of friends for plenty of humor and laughing and making jokes. But it has to be context-appropriate. One instance per book club meeting of a guy (or Auphelia) who's not sitting at the table coming in and interrupting you to let you know about a fun poll is a lively diversion; constantly getting interrupted while you're trying to talk is just frustrating. We all need some time to let out our energy and run around playing tag; but that should take place in the yard outside, a designated spot for activities of that kind, not in circles around the table while people are trying to talk.

That outside yard does exist, right here: https://discord.gg/c2Uw6MN

Plus, the forum is like a infinite number of RMBs, or, say, a massive rec room of tables. So you're more than welcome to set up a gaming area/basketball court/mosh pit/simulated cookie-stealing arena there as far as I'm concerned: https://forest.freeflarum.com/

Middle Barael wrote:

I'm really sorry. I did not think it was spamming, as I wasn't saying the same thing over and over again to fill up the inbox, which is my definition of spamming, but I'm sorry for any harm caused. I simply made one small joke after someone mentioned cookies, but then the Wandering Elmo came and started joking, and then I had to explain what had happened. My usual definition of spamming is something like typing the same letter over and over again in many posts, but I hear what you re saying, and I apologize. While I knew that we usually only do meaningful dialogue, I simply thought of it as a small joke, and so I apologize. i did not expect so much chaos to happen, or really any at all for that matter, so now just in case, I'll try to avoid making anything humorous whatsoever, so that nothing bad can happen.

I've heard this several times on NationStates, actually -- the bit about what constitutes spam. Newer players, generally versed in the internet but not yet familiar with NS-specific terminology, tend to think of "spam" as something posted repeatedly or something unintelligible (e.g. long strings of random letters). Something that has a unique meaning and was created for the first time just before posting cannot be spam under this definition. "Spam" as used in the channel description that I posted up above does have essentially that meaning.

But in many NS communities, the meaning of "spam" has evolved to encompass any posts that contribute little of value to the area in which they were posted, especially when they flood that area. The key to this shift is that spam on NS is not only repeated low-effort posts, but repeated types of low-effort posts. Of course, that definition is necessarily subjective -- what's spammy here would be reasonably acceptable on the South Pacific's RMB. But it generally includes posts less than a sentence in length, unrelated to a topic at hand which contains longer posts.

Ownzone wrote:

Nope, the Pokémon thing is not done yet. Considering what is going on in the world I had strong intentions not to respond on any of it on the RMB. Just to do my thing and to let it slip into obscurity so we could get back to actual "content". However I had the idea, and it was more or less presented as such, that it was an "official" community event between us and a couple of regions we have good connections with. The involvement of our Community Branch officer certainly reinforces that idea. I have nothing with the subject of Pokémon and in light of what has been happening around the world I can understand you calling it nonsense....I in fact have offered to withdraw so someone who is actually into Pokémon could take my place but apparently there were none so I considered it my civic duty to represent Forest despite having never watched a Pokémon episode in my life. To sum it up it comes across as strange that as a region we first greenlit an event but then as it progresses it receives criticism for being "silly". I suggest you evaluate this "event" during your next cabinet meeting.

Personally, I really appreciate your engagement in the Pokémon event. I know LD and others put a lot of work into it and while there is certainly legitimate criticism, I'm glad some people are actually appreciating the event.

Going back to the book club metaphor, the Pokémon event feels a bit like the bookstore owner/librarian walking over to the table where we're all sitting, announcing, "hey! We're running a fun event, check this out!", and laying Pokémon cards all across the table, calling some other patrons over to join in as well. It's totally well-intentioned and it's great if some of the book clubbers want to get involved. The bookstore owner/librarian should be applauded for their enthusiasm and creativity, and the other patrons should be welcomed wholeheartedly. But... maybe it could have been set up at a different table so that it didn't disturb those in the book club who wanted to finish their conversation?

Middle Barael wrote:

Greetings! I am the newly appointed Diplomatic Root, or Deputy Foreign Minister of Ambassadors, and so once we are ready figuring out which of our ambassadors are currently in those positions, we will notify you! I do believe, however, that our current ambassador is Mount Seymour, although I may be wrong, as our current ambassador lists are very outdated, which is why the new position that I am in has been created!

I think I'm still Forestian ambassador to TSP. Of course, as a government official there... it's a bit of a conflict of interest!

I hate to be a clueless newbie but I've got a question again. Some of these issues options are lenghty and confusing. I'd like to know the best options to vote for every issue if that's possible. Thanks in advance.

Cam

Camden forest wrote:

I hate to be a clueless newbie but I've got a question again. Some of these issues options are lenghty and confusing. I'd like to know the best options to vote for every issue if that's possible. Thanks in advance.

Cam

there’s no real way to know what the effects of issues are and to optimise them. ive used sites that keep track of issues and their effects before, but it involved staring at big chunks of text of effect names without punctuation or information on what big the effect is, and it never helped me at all since the effects change and the exact amount of change is unpredictable. ive stopped. however once you start answering enough it becomes quite easy to spot which options would have which effects–they’re always written from quite a liberal perspective after all :)

if you try to think from that perspective you can accurately predict which options increase niceness, rights etc. however sometimes making a harder choice to increase a more difficult stat might not have an effect. and some issues give much more drastic effects than ones that almost negligibly change some of them. but the only way to predict that is to experiment, so all in all i just pick what gives me the most fun :)

Novian Republics wrote:

The "best" options though is kind of a subjective thing, so perhaps it would be more useful to have an answer key of sorts to make decision making easier? If so then the following link may be of use to you: http://www.mwq.dds.nl/ns/results/

*Hypothetically speaking*

Thing is, mindless vandalism and violence kind of undermines the otherwise legitimate protests and demonstrations, especially so when [some?] targets of such actions are people that the protests supposedly are on the behalf of. So instead of helping people it ends up alienating them and consequently risks increasing the practical support for crackdown measures. When crackdown measures are then seemingly inevitably implemented then there's a not insignificant risk that protesters then accuse the crackdown of targeting the cause and not the violent dissenters, which may or may not hold true. As such accusations are levied, there's then an increased risk for the appearance of more violent dissenters and vandals which in turn risks intensifying crackdown measures, which at that point potentially perpetuates a vicious cycle of violence.

Now if you're the kind of person that asserts that the ends justify the means then the above may not bother you as much, as legislators then get additional ammunition for pushing for change as an end result. However, the change that may result may not always be the desired change, as it completely depends on the current political landscape and allocation of seats whether or not a strategy of appeasement or a strategy of repression is pursued. As such it is arguably potentially a huge gamble unless one possesses significant inside information and can accurately predict how legislators will act.

How I as an (biethnic) individual would (hypothetically) act in the face of a similar situation:

As I quite honestly abhor overly impulse driven people, if similar protests were to happen in my immediate vicinity I would be far more likely to support crackdown than the protesters, even if I somewhat ideologically aligned with them. Hell, I could quite possibly help (albeit somewhat indirectly) with crackdown measures if Home Guard units were to be called in. This is due to one simple fact; if such violent protests were to happen in close vicinity to me there could potentially be a high risk that my life, future prospects, community and friends are disproportionately affected. Thus my survival instinct could then potentially tell me that the fastest way back to normalcy is the removal of the disruptive elements. Now obviously, that can be seen as an impulsive behaviour and I would thus potentially risk long term psychological health if I were to come at odds with my ideals. However, in immediate life and death situations morals are somewhat put to the side so then again I might not. Getting back to the point; if a cause I otherwise support has a high risk of impeding the life of those around me and myself, then it would be a no-brainer to momentarily oppose it if it seems that doing so would lead to a better outcome for myself and those around me.

The second point in particular is something Facebook is now lapping up. Somebody who tweeted in support of the riots a few days ago apparently this morning did not take it too kindly when a riot occurred near *their* home, calling the involved individuals 'animals'.

Ultimately this is one of those tests of character that you never really know until it happens. When a riot in support of a cause you align with happens, will you side with the riot or will you oppose it and support crackdown measures? I think many, many of the more 'revolutionary' persuasion of politics severely overestimate how many people will go for the first choice instead of the second. In fact, throughout history and across the globe, in most given situations, the majority of people support the police over the protests, even in as obvious circumstances as Kent state back in the 1960s.

And riots during a time when we have a wannabe fascist in the white house... it does not bode well I'll put it like that.

Novian Republics wrote:

*Hypothetically speaking*

Thing is, mindless vandalism and violence kind of undermines the otherwise legitimate protests and demonstrations, especially so when [some?] targets of such actions are people that the protests supposedly are on the behalf of. So instead of helping people it ends up alienating them and consequently risks increasing the practical support for crackdown measures. When crackdown measures are then seemingly inevitably implemented then there's a not insignificant risk that protesters then accuse the crackdown of targeting the cause and not the violent dissenters, which may or may not hold true. As such accusations are levied, there's then an increased risk for the appearance of more violent dissenters and vandals which in turn risks intensifying crackdown measures, which at that point potentially perpetuates a vicious cycle of violence.

Now if you're the kind of person that asserts that the ends justify the means then the above may not bother you as much, as legislators then get additional ammunition for pushing for change as an end result. However, the change that may result may not always be the desired change, as it completely depends on the current political landscape and allocation of seats whether or not a strategy of appeasement or a strategy of repression is pursued. As such it is arguably potentially a huge gamble unless one possesses significant inside information and can accurately predict how legislators will act.

How I as an (biethnic) individual would (hypothetically) act in the face of a similar situation:

As I quite honestly abhor overly impulse driven people, if similar protests were to happen in my immediate vicinity I would be far more likely to support crackdown than the protesters, even if I somewhat ideologically aligned with them. Hell, I could quite possibly help (albeit somewhat indirectly) with crackdown measures if Home Guard units were to be called in. This is due to one simple fact; if such violent protests were to happen in close vicinity to me there could potentially be a high risk that my life, future prospects, community and friends are disproportionately affected. Thus my survival instinct could then potentially tell me that the fastest way back to normalcy is the removal of the disruptive elements. Now obviously, that can be seen as an impulsive behaviour and I would thus potentially risk my psychological health if I were to come at odds with my ideals. However, in immediate life and death situations morals are somewhat put to the side so then again I might not. Getting back to the point; if a cause I otherwise support has a high risk of impeding the life of those around me and myself, then it would be a no-brainer to momentarily oppose it if it seems that doing so would lead to a better outcome for myself and those around me.

I think one of the main problems with this whole crisis is how we categorize people and put them into groups. “The protestors” are all protesting for different reasons and in different ways: some protest for hate, some for hope, some for peace, some for war. Some simply peacefully protest, others use civil disobedience, some riot, and some loot. The police are different: some are racist, some are not, some crack down, others lead the protests. But by fighting blindly and hating for the sake of hating do nothing. So by categorizing all police as racist supporters of an unjust system or all protestors as a mindless violent mob is simply fighting blindly, and you are contributing to the injustice and the chaos. All people are different, and so we can’t keep on categorizing people. There are different types of protestors, rioters, even looters: some do it for revenge, others for need, some support the protests, some are just opportunists. There are different types of policemen and soldiers: some support crackdown, others don’t, some are racists, others are even people of color. We’ve seen different governors actin different ways.

This just further proves how violence, on either side, is unacceptable, as in the short amount of time it takes to commence a violent act, there is no way of knowing someone’s story or beliefs. Recently, I have heard the news that the police were called on George Floyd because he had a counterfeit bill. In the time it took to call the police, or for them to arrest him, or take him down with a knee on his neck, they were not able to hear his side of the story, and now we never will. Maybe the bill was counterfeit, maybe it wasn’t, maybe he knew, maybe he didn’t, maybe he had an explanation, maybe not, you’ll never know. And so by ruthlessly attacking someone because they are black, or a policeman, or a protestor, or a National Guard, or really anyone is a deplorable act, as you never know their story, or their reasons, or their identity.

We all need to learn to sit down, talk it out, and hear each other’s perspectives and opinions, so that we can work together for a future. You can still protest, you can still crack down, you can still keep security, you can still fight out against an unjust system. What you cannot do is blindly attack, without knowing the true inner identity of the human life you are taking, just because of whichever “side” they support, because then you are just as bad as the violent people whom you are attempting to beat.

Edit: In case you are thinking that I am breaking my pledge to not be on the RMB, notice I said I wouldn’t say meaningless things or jokes any more. I hope this counts as meaningful academic discourse.