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The new mexican confederation wrote:

Because it is tradition These issues seem nonexistent since no student is gonna bully someone simply because they refused to say the pledge, that’s not how people act for the most part.

It very much is. Bullies don't have good logic or reason, that's not why they do what they do. I remember a story of an atheist girl getting bullied so badly she had to change schools just because she didn't believe in God. What's to say some bullies wont see refusal to say the pledge as unpatriotic or lame? That's definitely enough of a reason for them to bully people.

It also doesn't change the fact that it's indoctrination and doesn't encourage kids to think for themselves, no kid is going to refuse to say it because they are being taught it's a necessary part of life when it's not. There's no good reason for it to exist at all.

The new mexican confederation wrote:

Because it is tradition

Lynching black people was a tradition, stoning gay people still is a tradition in places like Brunei. That's not an argument.

St Scarlett wrote:

It very much is. Bullies don't have good logic or reason, that's not why they do what they do. I remember a story of an atheist girl getting bullied so badly she had to change schools just because she didn't believe in God. What's to say some bullies wont see refusal to say the pledge as unpatriotic or lame? That's definitely enough of a reason for them to bully people.

It also doesn't change the fact that it's indoctrination and doesn't encourage kids to think for themselves, no kid is going to refuse to say it because they are being taught it's a necessary part of life when it's not. There's no good reason for it to exist at all.

Difference is that it’s a matter of religion, completely different than what’s here, if the pledge was optional no student will care if some people sit it out, people here already do that and there has never been a case of discrimination because of it. This is not the 50s where you are hated on for being anti American.

Nardin wrote:

Well, even though something is tradition doesn't necessarily mean its a good tradition. I agree that inspiring a degree of patriotism in children can be a good thing, but maybe other ways could be better then saying a pledge every day. I remember being a little kid and having no idea what was going on, but maybe that's just me.

Then make it optional, I have 0 issue with that

St Scarlett wrote:

Lynching black people was a tradition, stoning gay people still is a tradition in places like Brunei. That's not an argument.

Because those gross acts can be easily compared to saying a 30 second pledge

Galway-Dublin wrote:

A lot of the time it's enforced on kids with threat of punishment, even in public schools, where nominally the first amendment would apply

If you love your country, you don't need to pledge allegiance to a flag under threat of punishment, that's like a dictatorship. It's enough that if you see foreigners disrespect your nation while in it you tell them to gtfo if they don't like it here, and if they tell you to leave, throw a hand at them no matter who it is. People need to love their nation through the idea "I live here, my parents live here, my ancestors came here and died so that we can live the good life we live now, this is where it all began and where it will end", not "I love my country because my teacher told me so and I pledged an oath to serve it". It's a country, not a military... unless you're from ancient Sparta and born of Spartan warrior blood.

Patriotism borders cringe ngl

The new mexican confederation wrote:

Because it is tradition These issues seem nonexistent since no student is gonna bully someone simply because they refused to say the pledge, that’s not how people act for the most part.

Just because it's a tradition doesn't mean it's good, sometimes traditions need to disappear

The new mexican confederation wrote:

And what will getting rid of it solve? People never realize taking these things away only create bigger problems in the future, also not fair to the students who don’t mind the pledge.But this particular tradition presents no harm, taking it away presents more issues than solutions.

It does present harm though, it's teaching kids they have to be loyal to their country no matter what war crimes it decides to commit and that if you're not Christian you aren't important or a part of the nation.

If your only reasoning for something existing is, 'why shouldn't it exist' then maybe it shouldn't?

St Scarlett wrote:

It does present harm though, it's teaching kids they have to be loyal to their country no matter what war crimes it decides to commit and that if you're not Christian you aren't important or a part of the nation.

If your only reasoning for something existing is, 'why shouldn't it exist' then maybe it shouldn't?

How does it teach that? There is more to loving a nation than Just “oh you love America? You must love war and war crimes huh?” , you can pledge to a country and disagree with its government and actions.

Galway-Dublin wrote:

Yep, it doesn't help that the pledge also includes explicitly Christian lines in it, which further superimposes its values over those who may be forced to say it. It's a really weird relic of the cold war.

Not necessarily Christian. The word God is applicable among most religions. But is does disenfranchise (if that's the right word) atheists

Hot take, but Uwuguay has the best name of any country.

Uwu